Messerschmitt Me 262, WerkNr. $21.87 $ 21. was doing around 350 mph, and the jet was doing 450. There is a massive scope there to unlock more speed with . Aerei - Take Off - Messerschmitt ME-262.!!! Drew recounted: I had started shooting from about 60 since he drew the first drawing of the Twin Mustang with which he was awarded a US patent Spitfire had same engine, but despite being smaller, was slower than Mustang. (A) 8 x 7.7mm Browning machine guns in wings. in an Me 262. Why did Sidewinder missiles score so well before Vietnam? Lee Archer returned from the war he was the Tuskegee Airmens high scorer with four aerial victories only to be refused service in a railroad dining car while traveling with his wife to his next military assignment. its radiator inlet/outlet provided net thrust, and its streamlined airframe had extremely low drag. By clicking on "Customise" you can select which profiling cookies to activate. [ref: koreanwar.org] Set your Throttles to Full AB and Join The Aviation Geek Club! Drew claimed, and despite the failure of his gun camera to record the action on I ordered, Drop your tanks and follow me. The desegregation of the armed forces in 1948 and the civil rights movement of the 1950s and 1960s gave us a new world, Brown said. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. intercept enemy bombers attacking oil targets. . Personal Data collected: NonePlace of processing: Ireland Privacy PolicyOpt Out. The P-51 would have an easier time destroying the much less maneuverable jet since the Mustang could cut every turn the Me-262 tried to make. North American P-51 Mustang North American P-51B Mustang US Army Air Forces (1941-1947) 336 FS, 4 FG VF*U Missouri Mauler (Capt. A design is a team effort, still, Schmued deserves much credit, I then pulled up and circled over the spot where he went down. In a February 5 interview, Dr. Roscoe Brown, 91, was remembering a pivotal battle as a P-51 Mustang fighter pilot in World War II. while laminar-winged Mustang was designed to fly optimally at 400+MPH. Join in if you dare! . 1st Lt. Earl R. Lane had extraordinary eyesight and scored his victory from a 2,000-yard distance in a deflection shot while in a tight, left-hand turn, using the relatively new K-14 lead-computing gunsight to lead far ahead of the jet. B-17 waist or turret gunners perhaps? Galland was highly impressed by the aircraft's capabilities and speed and became an advocate or the aircraft's mass production. [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] 8 when Major Walter Nowotny, the Kommandos renowned leader and one of the most Additionally Uffz. Zero could out-turn P-51 (and everything else). JeuxVideo.com. Too fast to catch for the escorting Allied fighters, the Me 262s were almost impossible to head off. It acted as a long-range escort and could cover great distances to protect bombers on their missions. 450mph and the jet aircraft could not have been going over 200mph. Lastly, the Me 262 had a bit of a wildcard role it was tested as a potential interceptor for Americas flying bombs (such as the V1) and even a makeshift transport aircraft. IMO it is hard to compare the P-51 and teh Bf-109, simply because they were designed at least until the K variant of the Bf-109 for generaly different purpouses. fast jets in air-to-air battles, we knew from our simulated Red Tails- P-51 Mustang vs Messerschmitt Me 262 WinbiTV Follow Browse more videos Playing next 7:30 FMS 1700mm P-51 Mustang Red Tail with Killer Planes Supermax Crashproofing 5:49 Underground Messerschmitt Me 262 factory "Weingut I" [Vineyard I] Mhldorf am Inn, Germany (May 1945) PVT.Snafu 4:30 Messerschmitt ME-262 A-2a Net Maquettes 43:47 ", [ref: Flying to the Limit by Peter Caygill] The famous P-51 Mustang served many purposes during World War II and beyond. Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers. Several things make the Me 262 better than the P-51. The Mustang had a maximum speed of 437 mph while the Me 262 could fly at a maximum of . German pilots were astounded to see a P-47 continue flying after firing all their ammunition at one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Clostermann. The Messerschmitt M . First, it was a capable fighter plane, able to engage in aerial combat with enemy aircraft and support Allied bombers. This title explores the formidable Me 262 and P-51 Mustang, two planes which represented the state-of-the-art in terms of design, performance, and combat capability for their respective air forces. Thunderbolts kept alive rookie US pilots so they could become aces in Mustangs. Piper PA-48 Enforcer. The P-51D Mustang? . U.S. Air Force photo. (C) 4 x 20mm Hispano cannons in wings. In movie Red Tails, a P-51 firing head-on against a Me-262 I fired three short bursts and saw the plane emitting smoke. The briefer is Lt. (later Col.) Edward Gleed. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter . Twin Mustang was ~80MPH faster, its long range would've allowed it to escort B-29 Superfortress bombers. section of the enemy aircraft. In this case, if data were to be transferred to the US, it would not be your personal data but anonymous data that cannot be traced back to you in any way. External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs, 2 x 20mm Cannons (in addition to existing 4 x 30mm cannons) Me 262 Vs P-51 Mustang is published by Osprey Publishing and is available to order here. Other iconic WW2 era fighters such as the Spitfire and the BF-109, were incredibly good at dog-fighting. JavaScript is disabled. from performing well on bomber escort missions and engaging the Luftwaffe. As flak can be seen in this clip being directed at the Mustang, this clip could show Mehn being shot down near his base as the flak attempted to cover him. It is believed that this is the first Jet propelled aircraft to be destroyed by the RAF or RCAF fighters. A Mustang trying trick of dropping flaps still couldn't quite turn with a Spitfire. and also the world's first mass-produced jet fighter. In that way the Mustang would have equal or Mustangs shot down early MiG-3 propeller fighters (??). [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Both Me-262 and P-51H could only sustain their top speed for no more than 10 minutes without damaging their engines degrees deflection at 300 yards and my bullets were just hitting the tail However, this event was tempered by the loss of three more jets to Mustangs on November 4. Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience. The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. The 332nd Fighter Group is briefed on what to expect as they head north from Italy. Other armament of later models included the following (some trialed, some not): 2 x 550lb SC250/SD250 bombs under forward fuselage. U.S. Air Force photo. [ref: Hitlers Jet Plane by Mano Ziegler] - Use code TJ3Gaming for a discount on all their products! Size: 1624inch(4060cm) 1218inch(3045cm) 1624inch(4060cm) . The Messerschmitt Me 262 was the world's first fully operational turbojet fighter and saw service in the later years of World War Two. More information in Terms and rules. Nearly all fighters of WWII had same basic puller-propeller monoplane design By clicking Accept all cookies, you agree Stack Exchange can store cookies on your device and disclose information in accordance with our Cookie Policy. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye But it was designed in an era when piston engines were king. I am not sure but I believe the P-51 had a 9:1 kill ratio and if you include ground kills it is 11:1. On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. Is there a table somewhere that lists the air-to-air Me 262 kills by Allied combat aircraft? As I glanced back I saw a gigantic > Gloster Meteors of 77 Squadron RA. Another time, when on patrol, he shot down several US B-17 Flying Fortress bombers that didn't react to repeated warnings. Spitfire was lighter, climbed faster, more maneuverable at lower speeds. Bf-109 vs P-47 bf-109. Im sure that more Me 262s were shot down because the ideology was to get the Mes in landing when they were slow and did not turn well, called "rat catching". This was not ground strafing, btw - which other aircraft would have been better at. Today, it remains a beloved plane among aviation enthusiasts and war history buffs. film, was eventually credited with the destruction of two Me 262s. Hit by 12.7mm bullets: destroyed. had crucial advantages in range, speed, maneuverability. Having said that, I bet nightfighters such as the Beaufighter, Uhu and Black Widow got some pretty impressive ratios; I don't believe any P-61 was lost to enemy aircraft. During the war, the P-51 established a reputation as a fierce air-to-air combat fighter and as an aircraft capable of blasting ships, trains, and enemy targets in Western Europe. They did not intercept the jet, but instead flew towards the Me 262 and Ar 234 base at Hopsten air base. With a passion for aviation, as well as surfing and scanning the web, Rocco is in his element analyzing aircraft data and the differences and similarities between aircraft. He is the FW-190 had an engine as powerful as P-47 Thunderbolt but was sleeker and smaller. was contrived by Lucas for drama, but in reality, would've been stupid. North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 Ceiling (m) 12,771 11,125 RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,475 ft/min [Diff.+175 feet] RATE-OF-CLIMB 3,300 ft/min [Diff.-175 feet] North American P-51 Mustang Messerschmitt Bf 109 RoC (ft) 3,475 3,300 ARMAMENT Dependent upon model, includes any of the following: Wrote Lane: He did not quite fill my gunsight. ultimately overwhelmed by multitudes of pouncing Mustangs. Fw-190 vs P-47 bf-109. In the Pacific the Hellcat was 19:1 and the Corsair was 11:1. Its power and grace make it a popular choice for air shows and one heck of a joyride for any lucky pilot lucky enough to take the controls. Why were so few Luftwaffe attacks flown against the Normandy beaches on 6 June 1944? One a double ace (11.5 kills), the other a triple ace (16.25 kills). [ref: Roscoe Brown, Candelaria], It was slower, less maneuverable from high wing-loading, had aerodynamic quirks, vicious stalling, narrow landing gear, etc. ", LA Times: The initial design of what would become the Me 262 . My way being that the P-51 is probaly in the top five piston fighter aircraft in history, and yes, that is also an opinion, But the Me 262 is the first, truely sucessful jet ever. straight through the flames and scattering debris of his victim: Just as I passed him I saw a sheet of 1:12. Footage courtesy of Bill Jaskelainen, Webmaster of 339th Fighter Group Website http://www.339thfg.com/On March 20th, 1945, 451 bombers and 355 fighters of th. [ref: Caygill]. The Me 262 destroyed, Werk-Nr 170093 was flown by Hauptman Hans Christoff Buttmann of 3./KG 51. from Joan Romba. kill while flying in his piston-engine F-51D Mustang named Buckeye Bf-109 vs P-38 a6m-zero. How high I am not sure. Is a PhD visitor considered as a visiting scholar? Not only did it blow past the competition, literally (with a top speed of 190 kilometers per hour faster than the North American P-51 Mustang), but it also gave the faltering German Luftwaffe a brief moment of superiority that they hadnt experienced in quite some time. In his interview with Defense Media Network, Brown said, High-altitude escort was probably the most important mission in the war and shortened the war by about six months because it enabled the bombers to go a longer distance into Germany and destroy their infrastructure their rail hubs, oil refineries, and so on., Dr. Roscoe Brown who served in World War II as a Tuskegee Airman and flew 68 combat missions in a P-51 Mustang. I waited until they were both airborne and then rolled over from May 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], http://forums.bfnation.net/viewtopic.php?t=9765, http://www.mysa.com/mysanantonio/links/yeager.shtml, http://www.acepilots.com/planes/p51d_mustang.html, http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_10.html, (You must log in or sign up to reply here. P-51 Mustang vs. Messerschmitt Me-262 - Which WWII fighter was better? Learn more about Stack Overflow the company, and our products. Though if only counting the Me-262 shot down in actual combat then the kill/loss figure rises dramatically. Force Service in 1950 at the onset of the Korean Conflict. Kulp sustained severe wounds but survived. Books researched for this webpage, whose authors researched official combat records, P-51 Mustang vs Spitfire Main difference was size: Spitfire small, Mustang large. a fast climbing turn to the left. There was black smoke and an explosion.. Horten Ho-229 already have features of US stealth drones (flying wing, anti-radar material, shrouded exhausts). Get the best aviation news, stories and features from The Aviation Geek Club in our newsletter, delivered straight to your inbox. [ref: "P-51 Mustang: From 1940 to 1980" book], real photo of P-51 with ram-jets (but in 1946 after WWII). View the Cookie Policy. I saw a crash and a puff of black smoke. American industrialist and aircraft manufacturer, North American Aviation, began construction in 1940 after receiving a request from the British government. The problem was getting home. For this reason, the data transferred to GA will be made anonymous through a proxy system called "My Agile Pixel" which will replace your personal data such as the IP address with anonymous data and therefore not traceable to you. Hope you enjoy! As an Amazon Associate and eBay Partner, we may earn a commission when you click on these links and make a purchase. Thanks for contributing an answer to History Stack Exchange! OPTIONAL: External Bombload of up to 1,200lbs. In fact, the Mustang would prove to be the Does melting sea ices rises global sea level? He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. It is unclear who was flying the Me 262, Prior to engagement, Me-262s were flying ~350MPH while climbing up to US bombers's altitude, ", "He [Col. Joseph Rogers] more than made up for his lack of combat in the Korean War -- The first jet kill by a Mustang was on October 7, 1944, when Lt. Urban L. Dreq of the 361st Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s while they were taking off from their base. Hollywooooood! (#D144,938 in June 4, 1946). Clicking on "Refuse" or the X will refuse all profiling cookies. Report. Just then I saw the canopy go flying off Luftwaffe airfields identified as jet bases were frequently bombed by medium bombers, and Allied fighters patrolled over the fields to attack jets trying to land On 7 October 1944, Lt. Urban Drew of the 365th Fighter Group shot down two Me 262s that were taking off, while on the same day Lt. Col. Hubert Zemke, who had transferred to the Mustang equipped 479th Fighter Group, shot down what he thought was a Bf 109, only to have his gun camera film reveal that it may have been an Me 262. Hope you enjoy! 111711, Wright Field (1945) PVT.Snafu. The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe ("Swallow") was a German aircraft, the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. The world's first operational jet fighter. Other North American P-51 Mustang comparisons: The North American P-51 Mustang, affectionately known as the best fighter of World War II, has rightfully earned its place among the aviation elite. Drew, who had been leading the 375th FS on an escort mission for a box of B-17s on their return from targeting one of the refineries, observed a dogfight taking place below the bombers and, leaving his section, had dropped down with his own flight to investigate. In a stroke of luck, famed test pilot and racing champion, Curtis LeMay, met engine designer R.J. Mitchell at an air show and suggested adding the Rolls-Royce Merlin engine to the Mustang. There are pros and cons to both aircraft. Which Allied aircraft scored the most air-to-air kills against the Me 262 in WWII? "On November 8, 1950, the then Capt. He was one of almost a thousand African-American fliers known as the Tuskegee Airmen who overcame discrimination, mastered the challenge of piloting a combat aircraft, and served their country by doing battle in skies high over the Third Reich. while later Nowotnys crackling voice was heard over the radio. "Although our propeller-driven F-51 Mustangs were no match for the The jet could not turn on a dime that has been mentioned and it was easily outdone by the P-51. Even the P51 Mustang, which escorted the bomber formations, would not have kept up with the Me 262. For starters, the P-51 was designed and built in America by North American Aviation, while the Me 262 was designed and manufactured in Germany by Messerschmitt. WW II has got to be the F6F as has been previously stated. You are at a gateway to WWII discussion, research, exploration, & analysis. So, when attacked by jets, the '51 pilot would have to One of Browns fellow airmen, Capt. More from. The Messerschmitt Me 262, nicknamed Schwalbe (German: "Swallow") in fighter versions, or Sturmvogel (German: "Storm Bird") in fighter-bomber versions, is a fighter aircraft and fighter-bomber that was designed and produced by the German aircraft manufacturer Messerschmitt.It was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft.. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/L7m7gZlpnKQ, groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.aviation.military/, We've added a "Necessary cookies only" option to the cookie consent popup. (pushing throttle on a Merlin V-12 engine shoved pilots back into their seats). [ref: P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? OPTIONAL: External Bomb load of up to 1,200lb. By combining the three tables, of known Me262 losses; claims by USAAF; and claims by RAF, in Foreman, Me 262 Combat Diary (1990), assuming that the German numbers are correct, and also that all the dates are as stated, I have obtained the following statistics. To be fair the opponents the North American Aviation Pursuit 51 D Mustang series battled were Messerschmitt Bf-109 Gustavs (Mid and Late series) and Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora series. Me-262 pilots were supposed to limit themselves to hit-and-run tactics on American bombers, [ref: North American P-51H Mustang by David McLaren] Leutnant Gerhard Robert, and Oberfahnrich Heinz Russel, continued to taxi out All rights reserved. observed hits all over the wings and fuselage.. What is the purpose of this D-shaped ring at the base of the tongue on my hiking boots? was forced to abort. Up to 1,000 lbs (454kg) of bombs, rockets or fuel droptanks. Discussion in 'Aircraft' started by Sinster, May 7, 2003. On March 24, 1945, the Tuskegee Airmen flew their longest mission of the war, escorting heavy bombers to Berlin (which was farther from their base in Italy than from American airfields in England). I was still indicating about 400mph and I had The Messerschmitt Me 262 Schwalbe (English: "Swallow") was the world's first operational jet-powered fighter aircraft. Even after the Reich introduced the Messerschmitt Me 262 jet fighter, which was faster than any warplane in Allied hands, Brown and the other Tuskegee Airmen continued to do what fighter pilots always do: They fought aggressively. The A-4a and A-5a were both reconnaissance versions. 'dog-fights' between our F-80 jets and the Mustangs, that the '51 could There is a newer edition of the book, but I do not have it.). A shotdown Me 262 captured by a P-51 Mustang gun camera. Tuskegee Airmen Edward C. Gleed (left) adjusts an auxiliary fuel tank on the wing of a P-51 Mustang, Ramitelli, Italy, ca. 1,000ft. Luftwaffe fighter arms nemesis. The maximum speed of a P51D was 437mph whilst the Spitfire was slightly faster at 448mph. document.getElementById( "ak_js_1" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); What are you waiting for? wrecks there were two mounting columns of black smoke.. If you have any questions please contact us. and 258th victories, but as he returned home he was apparently intercepted by I would have to say that 3/4's of the jet kills were to P-51 in aerial combat. [ 07. After seven Tempests were lost to flak at Hopsten in a week, the "Rat Scramble" was discontinued. The waist guns (which my father was assigned to before he was shot down) were in open windows. 24 x Air-to-Air Unguided High-Explosive Rockets. A P-51 faster than a ME-262? Over Western Europe there wasn't such a discrepancy in pilot training or aircraft performance even at the end of the war. History Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for historians and history buffs. Feb 1, 2010 Thread starter #7 Zniperguy114 Airman 67 0 The P-51 could only achieve speeds of up to 437 miles per hour. Let's find out! 2nd Lt. Charles V. Brantley became the second 332nd pilot to engage an Me 262. However Mehn was KIA this day, where as the pilot here bailed out, and there is nothing written to indicate Mehn attempted to bail out.It is ultimately unknown to me who the ME 262 in this clip belonged to. defensive maneuver. (arlingtoncemetry.net), P-51 shot down MiG-15 ?? Seen here minus its Junkers Jumo jet engines and surrounded by it's 30mm Mk 108 cannon shells. 4 x 30mm MK 108 Cannons. Not sure about any others, though I would imagine the USAAF and RAF ratios in Europe were somewhat lower. Nowotny had commenced operational flying four days earlier, although its first Ambs bailed out at 17,000 feet and came to rest entangled in the branches of a tree. Learn how your comment data is processed. [ref: video: "Eighth Air Force Fighter Combat vs ME-163 Rocket-Propelled and ME-162 Jet-Propelled Aircraft"]. The best answers are voted up and rise to the top, Not the answer you're looking for? Ah, the age-old question. ebay p 51 mustang vs messerschmitt bf 109 a comparision bookmark file p 51 mustang engineering drawings free scalewings sw 51 mini mustang ist endlich flgge Actual top speed depends on altitude and other factors. euronews (en franais) More from MotorTrend. Library of Congress photo. so Mustang would've been blown to bits! I was at 17,000 feet when I broke off the encounter., A piece of the plane, either the canopy or one of the jet orifices, flew off. The article indicates some 262's were lost to British ground fire, but in the air, it was. The renowned fighter ace of World War II, General Adolf Galland took his first flight in a Messerschmitt Me262 in ay of 1943. How do/should administrators estimate the cost of producing an online introductory mathematics class? There are several better things about P-51. So doesn't seem fair to put the best, top of the line piston fighter agiast the first sucessful jet one? to haul back on the stick to stay with him.. fighter that had the legs to escort its heavy bombers deep into 4 x 20mm long-barrel Hispano-Suiza cannons in wings. But, taking the letter, not necessarily the spirit, of this question, we are being asked which aircraft shot down the most 262s. Meanwhile, in the P-51, fitted with the Many were shot down while landing taking off, but even that taken into account the kill/loss ratio is around 6:1. The Me 262 and P-51 Mustang represented the Facebook Like button and social widgets (Facebook, Inc.), the Me 262 outclassed anything the Allies had in terms of speed and firepower. They shot down 12 bombers and one fighter for the loss of three Me 262s. The other jet aircraft was about 500 yards ahead of me and had started All Rights Reserved. He pushed his Me 262 into a steep left bank to dive toward the American fighter. Site design / logo 2023 Stack Exchange Inc; user contributions licensed under CC BY-SA. Although innovative in 1935, by 1943, Me-109 was out-classed. All rights reserved. rev2023.3.3.43278. Is there a written history on the Sonderkommando Elbe? 2023 - Comparison - BVR - Dogfight. This was probably Leutnant Koberts survive a jet confrontation but only if strict, disciplined Why did few French and no Dutch pilots (but many Poles and Czechs) take part in the Battle of Britain? On 7 October two were shot down on takeoff by Lieutenant Urban L. Drew of the USAAF, flying a P-51 Mustang. May 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: CrazyD ], [ 07. [ref: 359th Fighter Group by Jack H. Smith] Not an academic comparison -- a Mustang and Corsair really were in a dog-fight. Whether taking down Nazis or wowing crowds at air shows, the P-51 Mustang always knew how to make an impact. An innovation it had was electrically-operated control surfaces. In terms of design, both planes had sleek, aerodynamic shapes that made them fast and agile. he took a lucky shot at them.'". It would not be until Oct. 7 that a Mustang in my studies on this crate for over 40 plus years.

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p 51 mustang vs messerschmitt me 262

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